Shelagh Hutson, chairman of Norfolk County Council.

No prayer ban at Norfolk County Council

by DAN GRIMMER Wednesday, February 15, 2012
5:20 PM

Norfolk County Council has pledged to keep holding prayers before its full council meetings, despite a High Court ruling which threatened the tradition.

The National Secular Society and an atheist ex-councillor last week won a High Court test case ruling that Bideford town council, in Devon, was acting unlawfully by putting prayer on meeting agendas.

Mr Justice Ouseley, sitting in London, ruled local councils lacked power under section 111 of the Local Government Act 1972 to hold prayers “as part of a formal local authority meeting”.

However, it was lawful for prayers to be said “in a local authority chamber before a formal meeting”, provided councillors were not “formally summoned to attend”.

And Norfolk County Council has decided that caveat is enough to justify it continuing to say prayers before its full council meetings –because they precede the agenda and are not a formal part of it.

Prayers are usually said there before full council meetings, led by Rev Chris Copsey, who has been the chaplain at County Hall since 2008.

At Monday’s full council meeting, the first since the High Court ruling, prayers were said, with county council chairman Shelagh Hutson explaining why.

She said: “Our prayers are not a formal part of our agenda. The agenda starts at item one, so we are intending to carry on with prayers.”

However, it was Mrs Hutson who led the prayers at Monday’s meeting, as Rev Copsey had injured her ankle in a recent fall.

Norwich City Council, Broadland District Council, Great Yarmouth Borough Council and Breckland Council do not hold prayers before their council meetings.

But North Norfolk District Council, which holds prayers at full council meetings, will no longer hold them within the meeting.

Tom Fitzpatrick, portfolio holder for democratic services at North Norfolk District Council, thought the High Court’s ruling against prayers was regrettable.

“On a personal basis I’m saddened by the decision but really, as a council, we have got no choice but to abide by it.

“I think the majority of the members will be sorry, it’s a tradition in most councils across the country. “As far as I’m aware it’s never been an issue the whole time North Norfolk District Council has been in existence.”

Mr Fitzpatrick said he thought most members would take up the opportunity to continue the tradition by joining prayers before the meeting was officially started.

It is understood that West Norfolk Council, where prayers are a formal part of full council agendas, is reviewing what will happen in the future.

But at South Norfolk Council there will be no change. Prayers are said there before the council opens for official business, which would remain the case, with councillors given the choice whether they attend or not.

At Suffolk County Council a thought for a day is read by a guest speaker before full council.

Sometimes that is a religious person, who may finish with a prayer, but sometimes it is representatives from organisations or charities.

A spokesman said: “We’ve received a number of comments from councillors and will be reviewing the situation in the near future. No decision has yet been made.”

The legal challenge which led to the High Court ruling was launched in July 2010 after the National Secular Society was contacted by Clive Bone – a non-believer who was then a Bideford councillor.

Mr Bone later left the council because of its “refusal to adjust” its prayer policy, which caused him embarrassment.

In court, the secularists’ argument included assertions that prayers breached equality laws and articles nine and 14 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which protect an individual’s right to freedom of conscience and not to face discrimination.

But the judge rejected the human rights and equality challenges. He ruled formal prayers were only unlawful because the council lacked the statutory power to put them on the agenda.

dan.grimmer@archant.co.uk

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40 comments

Appreciate your sentiments, alecto, but must differ. Vampires are quite nice, really, just misunderstood. Councillors.....? The absence of mirrors is more likely to be down to a need for them elsewhere. Charity begins at home. (Well, certain homes).

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Mad Brewer

Sunday, February 19, 2012
Do you know why Council chambers don't have mirrors? Not necessary. Councillors don't have reflections.

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alecto

Sunday, February 19, 2012
Why do Christians, sharing a single synapse, have such a big say? I think even Christ would say "Omygod".

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Mad Brewer

Friday, February 17, 2012
Steepler, at the risk of offending vegetarians, they are Dead Meat. Can Alf `n Bobby function separately? Or is it a case of Siamesed Synapse?

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Mad Brewer

Friday, February 17, 2012
I expect those former Green and Liberal Democrat councillors who have defected to the Tories are praying voters forgive them when they stand for re-election.

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Red Steepler

Friday, February 17, 2012
That Hutson looks a tad like Maggie T. It`s the grimace that does it. And the wig.

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Mad Brewer

Thursday, February 16, 2012
Surely a Japanese-style morning warm up would be much more productive?

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Mr Foxglove

Thursday, February 16, 2012
Yes, Thatcher was an odd choice to quote from.

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Mad Brewer

Thursday, February 16, 2012
Councils can have prayers before or after their meetings but they should not be a part of the agenda. America's Founding Fathers stated that church and state should be separate and I endorse that. Alas we in Britain have not yet grasped that, eg: Bishops in the House of Lords. Faith, religion should be kept private and allow we atheists and secularists to go about our business freely.

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NorthStarRaven

Thursday, February 16, 2012
Tolstoy what wrote War and Peace was a bit of an anarchist. I wonder what he's reckon to all this?

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I ronnie

Thursday, February 16, 2012
You can weigh a pig a thousand times or just once. It doesn't get any more or less of a pig. The consensus that the world is flat has been around for the vast majority of human history, doesn't make it any less round.

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I ronnie

Thursday, February 16, 2012
@ Mad Brewer ....... Fat Barman ?????

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blackcab

Thursday, February 16, 2012
If you can show me a comparable weight of study and research into the Tooth Fairy and Father Christmas as there has been into any of the major religions, I'll agree with you. 'The Hungry Caterpillar' and 'War and Peace' are both books, but there's not much of a comparison to make beyond that.

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Alf and Bobby

Thursday, February 16, 2012
Sorry if something along these lines appears twice. Tried to post it earlier, but it's one of those times were the post vanishes. Of course atheism isn't a religion, but it is a personal belief, and ones own beliefs inform ones views and decisions. To think that we can create a seperation of politics and religion is, for that reason, daft. The practice of a faith is both public and political, as in the case of the salvation army. It is impossible to be involved in social provision and be a campaigning voice (whether religious or secular) without being political. On the point that everything in religion is viewed as God's will, that's not accurate, unless you mean that the freedom to take ones own decisions is God's will.

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Alf and Bobby

Thursday, February 16, 2012
I think the comparison is spot on and is why I made it.

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I ronnie

Thursday, February 16, 2012
I think that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. My kids like make believe, I imagine our leaders do too. No judgement, just observation.

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I ronnie

Thursday, February 16, 2012
What is it with the 'Tooth Fairy' and 'Father Christmas' thing? Can people not see the comparison makes them look far more foolish than those they think they're mocking? Somebody may well take the view that religion is complete nonsense, a view I can completely understand, but that 'comparison' does them no favours.

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Alf and Bobby

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
Funny, I thought we didn't have a prayer when it came to sensible decisions being made in the chambers these days. That said why shouldn't our councillors get to say prayers if they want. My kids like writing to Santa and enjoyed tracking his journey around the world on the internet last xmas. They do still get money from the tooth fairy. Jack Valentine even left them a present on the doorstep yesterday. Where would we be without such wondrous childish innocence?

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I ronnie

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
How that lot all manage to get through a full round of prayers without bursting into flames is anyone's guess......

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Fenscape

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
Or Ashes to Ashes, Dust To Dust for us to build an Incinerator is a MUST !!!

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chebram71

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
The Only Prayer Norfolk County Council can come up with, is as follows. For we shall shaft our Tax payers !

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chebram71

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
Stop being militant, everybody.

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Ryan Watts

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
Larson, Of course atheism isn't a religion, but it is a personal belief, and that is the issue. Ones personal beliefs inform ones opinion, whoever we are and whatever our personal belief. It is not possible to fully seperate the two, as borne out by some of this debate. The Salvation Army are political, as is every faith. If any group campaigns on social issues, whether religious or secular, they are political. My view of the council issue is that prayer shouldn't be part of 'official' business, and clearly somebody shouldn't be compelled to attend. But that is not the same as saying 'religion should be kept out of politics'. To say so simply undermines the assertion that people are free to practise their faith. The practise of Christianity is both public and political. Mad brewer, "The beauty of religion is that everything is a god`s will" is simply incorrect. One is responsible for ones own actions. To quote Maggie Thatcher (not something I enjoy) when asked what she thought was the essence of Christianity, she replied 'choice'.

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Alf and Bobby

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
The beauty of religion is that everything is a god`s will. So grown-ups never need to grow up. PW, may we include limbo dancing and slimming? One to get under the door to Heaven, the other to facilitate slipping through the eye of a needle. Whichever the entrance to Paradise may prove to be. Of course, with reincarnation, it could be a revolving door?

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Mad Brewer

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
Could the councils adopt alternative activities for those who dont pray such as yoga or morris dancing?

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Peter Watson

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
I suppose prayer is usually for sinners? well it all fits in there okay doesn't it?

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chucky noris

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
I find myself agreeing with Larson and Norton. Simultaneously. I couldn`t have prayed for a greater Miracle! Are Alf and Bobby glove-puppets? It is much more of a challenge to live without a "Faith". And no mystical Deity upon which to lay one`s personal failings. I think we should leave gods out of religion.

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Mad Brewer

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
@Alf and Bobby. Unfortunately, religion, religious activities and rituals are used by members of 'the establishment' whether they are believers or not to legitimise their actions. A blatant use of this was by Tony Blair before the invasion if Iraq. It is the hypocrisy of the inappropriate use of religion and it's rituals - such as communal praying before a council meeting - which is at the root of this issue and not the choice of personal faith and whether an individual is influenced in hisher work by this. Where a body, for example; the SA , is dispensing charity, prayers beforehand would be quite understandable as they all share their faith. But I should be surprised if all our councillors are so unanimous in their thoughts. I suspect that it's just a ritual at the end of the day.

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RichardS

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
Each morning I usually pray for all the corrupt undemocratic lot, but no it doesn't work I just get more of the same.

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John L Norton

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
Religion is something very private, one's personal believe, those who believe have places of wroship aplenty, Norwich has a church for every day of the year. To use prayers, preferential to one religion, in council chambers were decisions for others are made, is dispensing a preamble and wrapping the following business in a quasi religous coat, to then sidestep and or shun those councillors who keep their religion to themselves, or are of other persuasions, is fostering division were there should be debate and understanding, it is wrong and untennable in any council.

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ingo wagenknecht

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
The Salvation Army are not " interfering " in politics by feeding the homeless. As daft as saying doctors are " interfering " with nature by vaccinating children against disease. And before anyone says it , atheism is NOT a religion in itself. Describing atheism as a religion is like describing not collecting stamps as a hobby.

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LARSON.E. WHIPSNADE

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
The lack of understanding in the previous comments is staggering. "I'll be the tooth fairy.." Really? Is that the levlel of debate? As for "who does God favour?" again, the lack of understanding of what prayer is, is astonishing. Can we finally nail this nonsense of 'religion sholud be kept out of politics'? Where exactly does that leave people with a faith? Should atheism be left out of politics? It's complete nonsense. Politicians at all levels bring their personal views with them, they are human, and the conclusions they comne to should be as rounded as possible. I wonder if people think the Salvation Army should stop interfering with politics by feeding the homeless? Surely that's a job for local government!

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Alf and Bobby

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
What puzzles me is which prayers are answered? Tory ones, Liberal, Socialist, Green? They can't all be praying for the same thing. Who does God favour?

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RichardS

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
I don't think a High Court should say whether all County Councils should or should not pray before Council meetings. It should be up to the Councils whether they pray or not.

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Lynda Edwards

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
Ryan Watts. Brilliant assessment. If prayers can happen without a "religious context", AE, who or what are we praying to? And for what? Why can`t grown-ups just be ...grown up? It`ll be the tooth fairy next. Ms. Hutson, perhaps.

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Mad Brewer

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
We already have a potentially exemplary protocol in place for this issue. As it already exists, and already works, its implementation would cause minimal fuss. Expressions of faith should be treated like smoking: fine in the home, fine in the car, tolerable in the street, but keep it out of the workplace, because it is irresponsible to force others to inhale...

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Ryan Watts

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
If the religious banner is removed from these 'prayers' they do serve a useful purpose to remind the members how to conduct themselves. A typical pre-meeting prayer asks for divine support in ensuring discussions are for the good of the people and not selfish reasons, everyone is respectful to each other etc. It is a way of setting the ground rules for the meeting and does help to focus the mind. I'm apathetic about whether prayers should be removed, but a few seconds spent to help focus the mind is certainly not a waste of time and can be done without religious context.

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AE

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
Something badly wrong with local government if they have to rely on prayer

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Jacob Burns

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
This unthinking lip service to religion in places and organisations where it has no place and which should be strictly secular is what props up the assorted churches and religions and gives them the excuse to meddle in our daily lives. Religion should be confined to where it belongs, in places of worship and the home not in running schools and in council halls. There is no democracy in religion.

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Daisy Roots

Wednesday, February 15, 2012
How much time has been wasted with this prayer nonsense at each and every meeting? Get rid and focus on using the time saved to do some proper, meaningful work which actually benefits the community that the council is meant to serve.

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merrydancer

Wednesday, February 15, 2012