Norwich City fans invited to attend safe standing debate at Carrow Road

Rail seats at Wolfsburg in Germany. Photo: David Wiltshire Rail seats at Wolfsburg in Germany. Photo: David Wiltshire

Wednesday, March 19, 2014
2:28 PM

The group campaigning to have standing areas built at Carrow Road are inviting Norwich City supporters to a debate at the club’s stadium tonight,

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Norwich City supporters with their safer standing survey at Carrow Road. From left, Neville Townsend, chairman Forces 2 Canaries Supporters Group; David Wiltshire and Neil Thomson from Barclay End Projekt. Picture: Denise BradleyNorwich City supporters with their safer standing survey at Carrow Road. From left, Neville Townsend, chairman Forces 2 Canaries Supporters Group; David Wiltshire and Neil Thomson from Barclay End Projekt. Picture: Denise Bradley

The Barclay End Projekt - spelt the German way in a nod to the country which already has safe standing at many football grounds - was founded last year.

Its aim is to get standing areas built at Carrow Road, and organisers David Wiltshire and Neil Thomson believe German-style rail seats in the lower section of the Barclay stand would do this safely.

Fans are invited to an open meeting at Carrow Road’s Norfolk Lounge to hear more about the campaign.

It has been organised by Norwich City Supporters’ Trust and will be held tonight at 8pm.

What does the law say?

Standing areas were outlawed at Premier League and Championship grounds under section 11 of the Football Spectators Act 1989.

It was initially planned that all Football League clubs must convert to all-seater status, but this was amended to just the top two tiers.

A similar amendment could permit safe standing areas within the top two tiers, and campaigners for the Football Supporters’ Federation believe this would not require an Act of Parliament.

There is no law preventing football fans from standing in a seated area - only a requirement that there is a seat for each fan.

But the Football League’s model set of ground regulations states persistent standing in seating areas while play is in progress may result in ejection from the ground.

Ground regulations are a matter for an individual club, and breach of these is a civil - not a criminal - matter.

GRAPHIC: Results from the Safe Standing survey

Standing areas are currently outlawed in the top two tiers of football in England and Wales, but national pressure group the Football Supporters’ Federation is campaigning for the government to amend legislation.

Organisers of the Barclay End Project hope to win the support of Norwich City bosses as the national safe standing campaign continues.

Mr Wiltshire said the Hillsborough disaster is an emotive issue.

But he said rail seating would “not be a return to anything” as it is new, safe engineering.

Group organisers felt they lacked the hard data to prove the strength of opinion on safe standing to club bosses, so a survey was suggested.

The result is a far-reaching snapshot of fan opinion - with supporters polled on the approaches to the stadium so as not to focus on a single stand.

Some 853 fans completed the safe standing survey, and an overwhelming 88% were in favour of a safe standing area at Carrow Road and 87% feeling safe standing would improve the atmosphere at matches.

The research was carried out between December’s home game against Manchester United and the end of January, with Canaries away fans also canvassed for their views at the New Year’s Day match at Crystal Palace.

David Wiltshire, of the Barclay End Projekt, said: “We would like the club to engage with supporters on the issue.

“I don’t want the club to think this is a negative - this is a positive.

“As fans we want people to be able to stand and for people to sit without obstruction.”

He said a move to introduce some rail seating in the lower Barclay stand could increase capacity at Carrow Road, boosting ticket revenue even if ticket prices were reduced.

Nev Townsend, chairman of the Forces 2 Canaries group, said: “I don’t think the club is burying its head in the sand over this. “I just don’t think they realise the strength of feeling. I hope we can have a conversation.”

A Norwich City FC spokesman said: “Standing at Carrow Road and other Premier League and Championship stadiums around the country is currently illegal under section 11 of the Football Spectators Act 1989, and therefore the club does not have the power to unilaterally reintroduce safe standing at Carrow Road.

“The club is always interested in the views of all Norwich City fans and welcomes their opinions on a variety of matters. “However, the law of the land is paramount and our most important obligation is to ensure the comfort and safety of all visitors to Carrow Road at all times.”

• WHAT ARE RAIL SEATS?

Rail seats are robust metal seats with a high back that doubles as a sturdy rail for safe standing.

The seats can be locked in an upright position to create a standing area, or unlocked to create a seated area.

It is a system that is already used at some of Germany’s biggest grounds, including at Borussia Dortmund’s Westfalenstadion, which has a capacity of more than 80,000.

Other clubs with rail seats include Werder Bremen, Wolfsburg and Stuttgart.

The number of fans admitted into a stadium could be limited to one per rail seat or, if clubs wished, a second row of fans could be accommodated by adding a rear step along each row.

National pressure group the Football Supporters’ Federation (FSF) is campaigning for safe standing areas to be allowed at football clubs in the Championship and Premier League.

The FSF is calling on the government to amend legislation that bans standing areas in the top two divisions of football in England and Wales - and on individual clubs to embrace safe standing.

• WHAT DO OTHER FAN GROUPS THINK?

Fan groups said today they supported the calls for safe standing areas.

Ben East, of the Northern Canaries group, said he had first-hand experience of safe standing areas at German football grounds.

“It’s just brilliant,” he added.

“I’ve no doubt it would improve the atmosphere, and it wouldn’t be like a return to the bad old days with massive surges and problems.”

He said he believed rail seating is a safe system, and that he would be “all for it” in the Lower Barclay end.

Mr East said most fans stand at away games already.

Robin Sainty, a columnist for this newspaper and former chairman of the Independent Norwich City Supporters’ Club, said safe standing areas would “remove a lot of sources of friction” between seated fans and standing fans blocking their view.

He added rail seats would be safer than standing in an area designed for seating, where there are trip hazards.

While the Hillsborough disaster was a tragedy, Mr Sainty said “standing at football matches was around for 100 years” before then, and can be managed safely.

92 comments

  • Amazed at the passion this subject has generated. I repeat, it won't happen. Heysel, Hillsborough, tribal warfare. Standing at matches is the caveman past which is why most clubs where it still exists want to develop all seaters if they can afford it. Can we now move on to when there should be a mid winter break. I say July.

    Report this comment

    Lincs Canary

    Thursday, March 13, 2014

  • Has anyone here, in the Barclay Lower or Snakepit, seen or heard of any accidents since the seats were introduced, which were caused by persistent standing? I've been in the Barclay Lower, Block E, Row V for 15 years and never seen an incident. Hillsborough is irrelevant to our case for safe standing, completely different circumstances. The council say the H&S licence is subject to us sitting but they have never proven that standing at Carrow Road is unsafe. People are right though, its never going to happen as the club dont care what fans think and not enough people are going to vote or comment on the subject. Then theres the case of people who dont understand standing areas, such as Peterborough in the cup last season. One woman telling people they couldnt stand in front of her because she couldnt see, despite it being a packed terrace.

    Report this comment

    Piranha24

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • This is an important debate. I'm in favour of bringing back safe standing areas, if it means more atmosphere and cheaper prices for those who want to stand. But I also remember standing on the River End and not seeing a thing unless my Dad lifted me onto his shoulders. The key word here is "safe", and the Germans know a thing or two about that. I remember the FA Cup 14final at West Ham, where I had to protect an elderly woman in front of me from each surge forward; followed by learning about Hillsborough as we drove home form the semi at Villa Park. But the other issue is behaviour in the seated areas: my Dad's now nearly 80, doesn't want to stand, and he gets (rightly) hacked off at beered-up idiots who stand in front of him throughout the match. There must be a way of delivering all this sensibly!

    Report this comment

    wurzelcanary

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Mr.Thomson, when political elections are `won` with low turn-outs of around 25%, the value of the result receives little credibility. 853 voters represents only about 4% of regular City supporters. We could have a UKIP Government, or Beelzebub being beatified, on that basis. Manners, consideration and etiquette are the only hope. So there`s scant hope.

    Report this comment

    Mad Brewer

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • No intention to `twist the facts`, Mr. davis, they are there for all to see. 89% of not a lot is 89% of... not a lot. I have no axe to grind, the sooner discourteous behaviour is confined to its own zone the better. Sensible comments by Lambo is God & LincsCan. God forbid that `Senior` types should be allowed to watch games in comfort, young stephen. I suppose we fossils won`t be around for ever, will we? And young people never get older, do they?

    Report this comment

    Mad Brewer

    Thursday, March 13, 2014

  • Couldn't agree more with you Mattias333. Although even with my teeth firmly gritted I am unable to say that I'd look on favourably if safe standing was allocated, I see you points. My main concern, and also a point you bring up, is that people cannot be trusted anymore, and that's maybe the biggest shame of all. OTBC

    Report this comment

    Powers1902

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Thomo, when democratic elections are `won` with turn-outs of around 25%, the value of the result has limited credibility. 853 voters represents about 4% of regular supporters. We could have a UKIP Government, or Tony Blair getting a Sainthood, on that basis. Manners, consideration and etiquette are the only hope. So there`s no hope at all.

    Report this comment

    Mad Brewer

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • I`m so grateful to be allowed to comment, eventually. Sorry about the missing `t`. Again, thanks, Archie, for allowing me into the Inner Circle, however briefly. Shake hands on it.

    Report this comment

    Mad Brewer

    Thursday, March 13, 2014

  • Also, Th0mo, try being a tad less prolix. Mattias does it, but his stuff is very interesting. You must be Archant`s Apprentice. Logorrhoea Land writ Large. Padsterland. I`m sure the amassed army of the other 750 Barclay Boys will support you, though. As long as you`re happy, the other 24,000 don`t matter.

    Report this comment

    Mad Brewer

    Friday, March 14, 2014

  • Why would anyone want to stand for 90 minutes when you can sit? – Mind you, why would anyone want to watch football?

    Report this comment

    Norfolk John

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • I normally find this standing debate no more interesting than the one about winter breaks, mainly because it won't happen. We are seated because Hillsborough was the fatal culmination of the anarchy that terraced accommodation delivered. Someone mentioned seniors being the most anti. Well, I am a senior and witnessed how the invigorating atmosphere of standing on terracing in the fifties changed to one of menace. It was down to fans finding it more affordable to travel and that in turn resulted in conflict. Terraced tribalism began to dominate and delivered the Heysel tragedy (Liverpool fans not so innocent on that occasion), a ban on English clubs in Europe and finally Hillsborough. I have some happy memories of standing at matches but it is the past. Let it go. If terracing was brought back there would, in the longer term, be no happy returns.

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    Lincs Canary

    Thursday, March 13, 2014

  • …..Many things get talked about...like the NDR...and the pink pathway for cyclists....I've also heard a rumour that if Hughton stays much longer....The seats in the N&P stand are to be turned around, and face the other way!.....

    Report this comment

    Stew Pydsodd

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • One of the reasons I do not go to Carrow Road, is because of people standing, while I sit, that's what the seats are for

    Report this comment

    Derek McDonald

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Good post Jigs69. Block D LB stand too - I know 'cos I look down on 'em - if you know what I mean:)

    Report this comment

    el dingo

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • What's more I'd love to swap my season ticket from the Jarrold to a standing area ticket in the Lower Barclay. I suffer from a natural urge to stand during moments of high excitement (such as when Snodgrass takes a corner!) only to be scolded by the couple behind whose 'nice afternoon out' I've just ruined.

    Report this comment

    Mellow_Yellow

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Totally agree Powers. what happened that day was awful. But while that pain will never be eased fully for those poor families the world has moved on. The atrocities of that day would be extremely hard to be replicate. I suspect nothing will ever come of the safe standing campaign purely because there is too many idiots who would spoil it. The German, American fans look at sport a different way to us. We could learn alot from them. While NCFC is relatively free of such idiots (Yet you'd think otherwise if you listened to Canary Call) other clubs are still riddled with issues. Tricky one. I hope the issue is looked at as im in favour. As long as its done correctly and safely. Thats what we are all after at the end of the day, a safe and better match day experience.

    Report this comment

    Mattias333

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • OK, 3 attempts and out. You win this time, Archie. Agree with sensible comments from LincsCan & Lambo is God.

    Report this comment

    Mad Brewer

    Thursday, March 13, 2014

  • .....There would be very few problems if every one was 6ft 2ins tall ,weighed 14 stone, and wore size 9 shoes....unfortunately those that are 5ft 7ins and weigh about 10 stone always seem to have one of those bigger guys in high heels standing in front of him!....kids in the distant past were passed down over the heads of others so they could fit in at the front.....no chance of that happening anymore!.....

    Report this comment

    Stew Pydsodd

    Thursday, March 20, 2014

  • I think this is a good conversation and generally I'm for it, but I do have questions about how this could work. 1) the idea that the club could sell more tickets through this is foolish - health and safety will see to an increase in people in the concourse areas is not viable. That's a no go IMHO. 2) if the seating option is adopted with the rail seats, surely the higher bar in front will be in people's eyesight and interrupt the view. 3) if the option exists to formally use the seating, who is going to make people actually sit on the seats? Stewards can't do that now so hardly going to work in that scenario. If people were to get used to standing in these areas, the seats will end up being a folly that is never used. Rail seats therefore a bit of a red herring; surely it will just be rails alone? 4) giving licence to stand will still make it easier for people to pop up in areas they shouldn't be, just so they can be with their mates. This will lead to increased issues from a security point of view. Maybe not at Norwich so much, but what about away fans and places like Millwall, Chelsea and West Ham? The reduction of trouble inside grounds over the past 25 years is I'm afraid to say, largely down to people not be able to move about easily once sat down, or even standing up. I really do like the idea of this, but unfortunately I do see other issues that will pop up as a result which go far wider than just the actual standing part of it. Sorry, but I do believe the authorities know that and for that reason, believe this will not go anywhere, even though the idea is a good one in principal.

    Report this comment

    Adams is God

    Thursday, March 13, 2014

  • Mad brewer - I stood at Peterborough in the cup last season and there was a number of fans who did not seem to know how to behave in a standing area. It is completely different to a seated area and only comes with experience.

    Report this comment

    canarycaz

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Piranha24: Try telling the families of Hillsborough that 'oh, it's irrelevant.' If that had happened to us, no one would be trying to get safe standing re-introduced. I'm sorry but that is fact.

    Report this comment

    Powers1902

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Any proposed change will be subject the necessary safety certificate being granted so any club participating would need to make a number of adaptations as measures to minimise risk.This requires obviously the consent and ,hopefully,support of the board.What is needed is a club willing to pilot a scheme to monitor its' safety effectiveness.A club with a good record of supporter behaviour would make a good choice.If it doesn't work at Carrow Road,it is unlikely to work elsewhere.It needs the board's backing but will they give it?

    Report this comment

    Peter Watson

    Wednesday, March 19, 2014

  • That's three and a half hours, not 312. I know the A17 is bad, but it's not quite that bad!

    Report this comment

    Mikanary

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • I can remember years ago as a young boy standing beside my father in the 'River End'. All I ever got to see of the match was the backside of the fella standing in front! But yes, I'm all for having a standing area - perhaps a section of the lower N&P stand as well as the Lower Barclay. The more City supporters at CR the better in my view.

    Report this comment

    Mellow_Yellow

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • There is no doubt that there is a big demand for a standing area and the two lower ends would be ideal for this to be accommodated. The only problem I see is for those fans who wish to sit but currently have seats in those areas. Likewise, I think it would still be better to allocate each fan with a space so therefore do not see this as a method to increase stadium capacity. I would not like to see a return to free for all fight to get the best spot so to speak.

    Report this comment

    TrevorKeith

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • MB, in last week's Nottingham council by election the Elvis Bus Pass Party beat Cleggs "You ain't nothin but a lap dog" party. Seems credible to me.

    Report this comment

    Lincs Canary

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • There it is, as long as I leave the content out. To young stephen davis I would venture to suggest that, while folk of the `senior variety` won`t be around for ever, young people do get older. Usually. Even you. Trust me.

    Report this comment

    Mad Brewer

    Thursday, March 13, 2014

  • Anybody got shares in the tin chair factory?

    Report this comment

    Mad Brewer

    Thursday, March 13, 2014

  • well said Thomo! A large group of ST holders I travel up with stand right in front of Nev. Really appreciate what you guys are doing. While Hillsborough was truly tragic lessons have certainly been learnt. I fail to see the negatives in the proposal. I could understand if they wanted to turn all of CR into standing as its not everyones cup of tea but in the Lower Barclay and Snakepit it already happens and wouldnt be any arguement. Certainly helps atmosphere as well.

    Report this comment

    Mattias333

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Matt: Although seated, I remember having a Cruzcampo or three in plastic glasses at the Son Moix (Real Mallorca) while watching Torres score for Atletico and Eto'o having a stinker. Many Spanish fans still call violence "the English disease". I have never been to a Bundesliga game but La Liga has it all. Try getting a ticket when Barca or Madrid were in town. Never saw either:(

    Report this comment

    el dingo

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Thomo, thanks for your reply. That's really helpful and does help me sway towards the concept. Again, thanks.

    Report this comment

    Adams is God

    Thursday, March 13, 2014

  • Canarycaz: what is so difficult about standing up!

    Report this comment

    malaga flier

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Thanks for that response Thomo. I still think you have a long way to go because as NCFC say there is the little matter of the law of the land to consider. OK, I was a bit facetious in my last post (a dig at another contributor) but there was a serious side to what I was asking as regards how the safe standing areas, if agreed, would be implemented. You have answered that.

    Report this comment

    Lincs Canary

    Friday, March 14, 2014

  • Gee thanks for the notice of the meeting guys! I can't make it, but with notice I might have been able to. I remain opposed to the idea and occupy my seat in the Lower Barclay, which I have had since the mid 90's. I have no desire to move and certainly not to the River End. I doubt you would get even a quarter of current Lower Barclay ticket holders to agree to switch to standing. As has been said, if you want to stand go to Wroxham, Gorleston or Dereham. I'm guessing there will be no seats at the meeting tonight - and not many attendees either! Will someone please post the attendance?

    Report this comment

    Mikanary

    Wednesday, March 19, 2014

  • Spot on NorthStarRaven! Simple of that. No need for debate really. Times have moved on and its been proven to be extremely safe. Those who are against is are for 99% of the cases already SITTING in a known SITTING area so any changes would not effect them remotely in the slightest. Those in favour are already STANDING and it just be a way of making what they and the club are allowing legal (and even safer!). Everyone is happy. Some people just want a moan for the sake of moaning. One day Hughton will get sacked, Wes, RVW, Bassong, Snoddy will all be unable to play and everyone will combust through having nothing to moan about ;).....oh hang on the blooming goal music.....EXPLODE

    Report this comment

    Mattias333

    Friday, March 14, 2014

  • I think supporters should have the choice - when I go to football with my children, I would always choose a seated area so they could see. However, if I went without them, I would like the option to choose a standing area as it adds atmosphere. However, there is a whole generation of fans who have grown up without experience of the etiquette of proper standing at football so it would be a steep learning curve for some.

    Report this comment

    canarycaz

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • if you want to stand go to non league , sit down shut up !!

    Report this comment

    sammo

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • There is already a safe standing area. Current occupant CH.

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    bazzaboy

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Um, let me think.... no, I`m stuck there, el dingo.

    Report this comment

    Mad Brewer

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • As one of the more senior supporters I prefer these days to sit, but I fully support the right of younger fans to stand if the wish, so therefore had I been given a vote I certainly woud have voted for it to be reintroduced. It is interesting to see the picture above at Wolfsburg as there are fans in the back of the picture but many empty seats in the foreground. If the Lower Barclay returned to standing, would the section of the Jarrold used by away supporters also need to be changed or would they be moved to the River End for example?

    Report this comment

    TrevorKeith

    Thursday, March 13, 2014

  • I'm ignorant on these matters.....will this still apply in the Championship next season?? :)

    Report this comment

    Algarve Canary

    Wednesday, March 19, 2014

  • Mattias333: My comments were admittedly blunt but whenever this subject is raised my blood starts to boil. Why has the country chosen now to try and re-instate safe standing, when the families of the Hillsborough disaster are finally making progress in their battle with finding out the truth? The whole issue leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Stadiums were changed because people died, not because some people didn't like others standing in front of them during match days! Yes there's more to it than just Hillsborough, but I think these issues should have been raised at a better time.

    Report this comment

    Powers1902

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Eureka! Is it something to do with the best way of being an Impact substitute is sticking to what you do best?

    Report this comment

    Mad Brewer

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • There is clearly a market for safe standing, consumer choice will win the day. The majority of people arguing no return to standing (completely missing the point of the safe standing argument) don't even go to games anyway so how will this affect them exactly?

    Report this comment

    ncfc boy

    Thursday, March 20, 2014

  • hi, Lincs: If the club made plans to develop a safestanding area, i would imagine that the club would indeed ask fans during the renewal period if they would prefer to stand or sit. What we do know from our survey is that plenty of people outside of the barclay lower would like the option to stand. So, If the agreed regulations do indeed allow for an increase in capacity then people requesting a move to the standing area could immediately be allocated a provisional position in the stand, freeing up seats around the ground for people who do not wish to stand. The Barclay is the most likely area to do this, as the only other alternative is really the N&P lower which would be a logistical nightmare, as you'd have to move the whole of an already seated community to a standing one, and vice versa. It would be a lot easier to leave Barclay standers where they are, and for sitters to move to the vacated seats of relocated want to standers. I'd like to add though, where ever the standing area in the ground was implemented, standers would happily move to it. As for the rest of your comments, i see these as somewhat facetious. Someone standing in a seated area, has no excuse if a designated standing area is available. If they still insist in consciously buying a ticket for the wrong area for their selected preference, then they deserve to be thrown out. Seats would be locked in standing areas, unless they were needed for seated fixtures.

    Report this comment

    Thomo

    Friday, March 14, 2014

  • Seemz like zeez rail seats are ze vew to go !!

    Report this comment

    Dubai Canary

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Powers I understand your concerns but using hillsborough as an argument is exceptionally flawed and overly aggressive way of looking at it. I think even someone who has only half listened to the reports can see what caused the sadness that day. The world has moved on and other countries have proven there is safe ways of providing safe standing areas. Its all good having an opinion but falling to even consider another persons arguement or point is a sad way to go about debating it. No different to me going about it in a manor that is "I want it, its fine in germany, full stop". I understand concerns thats why Ive tried to see both sides and suggested just the areas that actually want it to have it. (I.e Lower barclaysnake pit). Piranha I agree with you. My ST as well as friends I go with spreads all along the blocks in the lower barclay and only incidents ive ever seen during the entire time we've stood have been non standing incidents like away fans in home area. Not seen a single injury or trouble. To be fair I suspect this is why the stewardsclub have no enforced people to sit down as everyone in that area is for it and no trouble has occured. I could understand the minority against being so defensive if it was going to directly effected them (like the club saying the whole stadium was going to be safe standing etc...) but fact of matter is the areas I suggested wouldnt actually bring any debate or argument....as we does it anyway. Just be nice to see the club support it. Understand they've had a slapped wrist lately though hence the sudden steward strictness increase. Until the league rules change nothing will happen anyway so calm down people :) OTBC

    Report this comment

    Mattias333

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Blaffen Wijs, I`m beguiled by those beatitudes. To LincsCan I say, I agree entirely. To Thomo I say, you`ve had your moment of fame, along with 852 others. Enjoy and move on. To stephen davis, I echo what he has said. Nothing.

    Report this comment

    Mad Brewer

    Friday, March 14, 2014

  • No doubt NCFC would love standing areas as it would increase capacity without a major capital outlay,but a survey where 750 fans want standing is hardly conclusive.Pehaps the club should survey all season ticket holders.

    Report this comment

    Sherbert

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • well said Mr Thompson! A large group of Season.T holders I travel up with stand right in front of Neville. Really appreciate what you lot are doing.

    Report this comment

    Mattias333

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • …..Sorry to disagree Stephen Davis…..The future is NOT standing.... STANDING is the past....The future is not going to Football Stadiums in all weathers and paying through the nose for the privilege....The future is watching from the comfort of your TV screen...or your tablet, or your phone, or the pub, or the club....Supermarkets and other retail outlets, have discovered that a vast amount of their customers want home shopping....and Football, already in our homes, will increasingly follow that trend!.....

    Report this comment

    Stew Pydsodd

    Wednesday, March 19, 2014

  • No doubt NCFC would love to introduce standing as it would increase the ground capacity without a major capital outlay, but a survey where 750 fans want it is not a conclusive argument.

    Report this comment

    Sherbert

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • I started watching football as a 10 year old on the Kop at Anfield. I never ended up in the same place as I started and would have died at one particular game if some kind soul hadn't noticed my leg wrapped around a stanchion with thousands of people bearing down on me. But I wouldn't have wanted to watch my football any other way then, nor when I moved to Norwich and stood in the Barclay. However, I am now 60 and can't think of anything worse than standing at a game. Each to their own. If safe standing is wanted in certain areas, and it really is foolproof, let them have it. From what I can see it is only Block E and the Snakepit that stand consistently, so restrict it to there. There seem to be far more kids and OAPs in the N&P and it just wouldn't make sense for them.

    Report this comment

    jigs69

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • There it is, as long as I leave the content out. To young stephen davis I would venture to suggest that, while folk of the `senior variety` won`t be around for ever, young people do get older. Usually. Even you. Trust me.

    Report this comment

    Mad Brewer

    Thursday, March 13, 2014

  • Sammo - That's right, cos God forbid we create any noise and atmosphere at City games, and get behind the team. Let's all sit down and be quiet like 1p5wich fans

    Report this comment

    stephen davis

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Lincs Canary; I think it's you who's the caveman with those views. Safe-standing is the future and it is inevitable. The only question is when, not if. There's a large contingent at every club who want it and in the end, the majority will have to be listened to

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    stephen davis

    Thursday, March 13, 2014

  • I appreciate your response to my comments Mr Thomson and agree almost completely with what you say. Liverpool, like Norwich, is a club that's close to my heart and I know all too well how people, in particular the police and the newspapers, tried to lay blame on the supporters that day. But have the police learned anything since then? I say no. They struggle to contain fans now when they are seated, so how will they manage when they're standing? Unfortunately this country is not ready to reintroduce standing at games, due to both the lack of police and rowdiness of football fans.

    Report this comment

    Powers1902

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Pointless debate in my opinion. It's not coming back and I for one applaud that stance.

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    Powers1902

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • I like Mad Brewers comments! There, I've said it...

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    Adams is God

    Thursday, March 13, 2014

  • My first game was Spurs-Liverpool in 1966 and apparently some poor devil was stabbed just in front of me but luckily I was too small to see it. Dad was a London copper and told me about it in his usual gory detail. Times have changed though and I hope I speak for several of my age group who would love to stand - even if only to hear the immortal words: "Open yer legs chap..."

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    el dingo

    Thursday, March 13, 2014

  • Nev got his picture in the EDP! Get in there. 110% firmly behind him and safe standing campaign. Understand some have no interest and thats fair enough (Jarrold, City Stand, NP upper and lower, Community stand etc...)....but a huge majority of the lower barclay where I sit are fully behind it and have stood Safely for years. Well done Nev!

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    Mattias333

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • I`m a stickler, by gum. Is it true Liverpool issued their Club Cannibal, Luis Suarez, with some Earfix cement?

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    Mad Brewer

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Technically the 'happy returns' would be low, because those who want it already do it so its just continued movement except the club wouldnt be breaking any rules. All away games we stand and all home games in the lower barclay we stand with no incident. Yes technically safe standing in Germany etc can produce a marginal increase in capacity but thats not a priority in my eyes. Like others mentioned the bars are rammed as it is at HT and the introduction of the new que system is more dangerous than standing during a game. No jokes, ive seen more incidents at HT this season since the new que system came in that I have in over 15 years in the Lower Barclay standing. That be a major job expanding that area if at all possible. In the long run I dont expect any movement on the issue although I hope it does. Carrow Road would simply become a quiet snooze like many PL and bellow stadiums if the Lower Barclay was forced to sit for example. Although such a small thing and possibly hard to understand for those not sitting there but I see it week in week out and know the effect it'll have. The atmosphere has taken enough of a beating with the dreadful performances on the pitch and the atmosphere really does help. Hopefully one day the issue can be addressed.

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    Mattias333

    Thursday, March 13, 2014

  • mattias333, I was sitting in the Jarrold stand, half way up

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    Derek McDonald

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Why the guilt, Lambo? Everyone likes his posts. You're not the only deity on this site. It's not a coincidence that he's been nominated in 2 categories at this years Academy Awards (aka "The Archie's") : Best Male Poster in a Leading Role and Best Post in a Foreign Language. Some say he's long overdue a Lifetime Achievement Award for Services to Disgruntled Football Supporters, but I think it would be premature until his "lifetime" has run it's course. And between now and then he will probably quear his pitch (see what I've done there) with the members of Archie's Academy. But as for his 2 nominations this year, he must be a shoe-in for one if not both. Can't wait to hear the acceptance speech. Wonder if he'll weep, thank his mother, thank me, throw up Pinot Grigio down his tux or try to grope Delia as she hands over the gong. What fun!

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    User Removed

    Thursday, March 13, 2014

  • Go for it - me and my lot are knocking on a bit now so sit in the UB but we'd be down the lower like a shot for Cup games I'm sure. As for the safety issue, if the UB bar is considered "safe" at half time....

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    el dingo

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Have standing areas for people who want to stand and leave seating areas for people like me who wish to sit. I do not care as long as the people who want to stand do not do so in front of me.

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    NorthStarRaven

    Friday, March 14, 2014

  • It would seem the laconic Tin Chair Co. shareholder, Mr Thom, is an Archant-proected species.

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    Mad Brewer

    Thursday, March 13, 2014

  • Barking Wise, I`m beguiled by your beatitudes. To LincsCan I say, I concur. To Mr Thomson I say, you`ve had your little bit of celebrity, along with 852 others. Enjoy it and move on. To stephen davis, I echo what he has said. Nothing.

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    Mad Brewer

    Friday, March 14, 2014

  • Brewer - Bit of a biased, selective and twisted view about the survey don't you think? You say only 4% of the regular home gate have voted in favour of safe-standing, but you conveniently choose to ignore the fact that 89% of those who answered the survey were in favour, therefore twisting the facts to suit your argument. Superb post Neil Thompson and good luck with your campaign. For those thinking of the Liverpool supporters' families when debating this topic, what do you have to say about the current Liverpool fans (home and away) who stand at every game? Those against standing at football should be in favour of this more than most, as it will finally end the issue of persistant standing in seated areas and blocking people's view and enjoyment of the game. There will be no excuse for persistant standing in a seating area if there is a standing alternative. Personally, I think it's just a matter of time before standing returns, most of those against it are of the senior variety

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    stephen davis

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Hi, i'm Neil Thomson from the Barclay End Projekt. Powers1902: The seating ban was introduced following Hillsborough to lay the blame of the lives of the 96 at the feet of football supporters, rather than punishing the real offenders, the police. That's the real Justice Liverpool seek, not necesssarily action against standing, although the families group are opposed. Its rarely mentioned that Liverpool were the last of all the top flight teams to go all-seater, with massive campaigns at the time to "keep the kop standing". The proposed solution is not a return to Hillsborough or heysel, things have changed, lessons have been learnt and rail seats is a safe solution to allow people to have the choice to sit or stand. Hiding issues behind stones doesn't mean it goes away. The Taylor report said fans would get used to sitting, yet we're having this conversation 25 years later. 250 people went missing in an aeroplane this week, but we will not stop using planes as a method of transport. What we want is a solution to the issue and fan safety is paramount. Mikanary: You state you were not given the option but we did advertise this survey with flyers at home and away games, we posted on pinkun, WOTB messageboards and on twitter and facebook. Unfortunately we do not have the distribution list that the Club has, but what we did receive was responses from a broad range of fans in different demographics, and of those that took a couple of minutes to fill it in we saw a 89% in favour. Maybe the club will conduct their own survey in the future. You mention being forced to tolerate standing in the Barclay at present. Wouldn't having the option to sit or stand in designated areas benefit fans of both views then? Also, the law states that the ground must be all seated, not that we all sit. The ground regulations however, do state that people should sit, but the clubs around this country choose, when it suits them, to ignore this. We'll receive "persistant standing" leaflets again at the next home game no doubt, but when the teams under pressure and the clappers are handed out, will they be so hot on making everyone sit. I very much doubt it.

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    Thomo

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Any change will need to be carefully risk-assessed and maybe a pilot project is needed to see how it works in practice-I read Celtic were thinking about giving it a go.I can see standing areas,carefully introduced,actually being safer in the sense that the conflict created between those with an irresistable urge to stand and those who maybe can't, now will be reduced.

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    Peter Watson

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Yes of course they should, there is nothing worse than sitting watching football, you might as well stay at home and sit in comfort and watch it on the box and get the missus to wait on you.

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    John L Norton

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • canarycaz, it`s all down to manners, consideration for others etc. Etiquette can be taught, but it`ll be an uphill struggle with some of the Herberts that infest footy grounds. Hot off the Press! Becchio has been appointed as Project Leader and Tester-in-Chief of the new seats. A Club spokesperson said "Luciano brings a wealth of experience to the whole sedentary scenario. The new arrangements will be introduced by a Lily Savage-style Charity Sit-a-thon, with proceeds going to Luciano`s nominated cause, The Gluteus Maximus Foundation. The main sponsor is Germoloids".

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    Mad Brewer

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Each to their own Derek but where were you sittingstanding when this happened to prevent you going to Carrow Road anymore. Persistent standing happens in the Lower Barclay because the majority all prefer it that way whether its the season ticket holder in front of me who holds his young child all game or the two short drunk ladies that learn on me behind because im 6ft3 and they peer over me. Other areas of the ground (pretty much everywhere else other than Lower Barclay or Snake Pit) sits for 90% of the game, only quickly standing up for 30 seconds max because of a big chance or bit of action going past. If you have an injury or medical condition I can imagine its very annoying where ever you sitstandwatch etc....but even if the club had Kim Jong Un take over in an inforce a no movement of knee's rule people would still get up now and then whether its for a toiley break or to celebrate a near chance? Not a dig, knock or anything of the sort chap just trying to understand where you were watching the game to force you not to want to watch anymore in person? Standings not really an issue outside the lower barclay as it does not happen to any extreme degree.

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    Mattias333

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • It would seem the laconic Tin Chair Co. shareholder, Mr Thom, is an Archant-proected species.

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    Mad Brewer

    Thursday, March 13, 2014

  • Steely, Brew, there's a link between Becchio, seats and EvoStik. Can you tell me what it is?

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    el dingo

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • "Beered up idiots" indeed, wurzel. Can`t see Etiquette lessons having much effect on them. On my rare occasions in the Barclay, I`ve seen and heard some awful things. Even one crazed drunk literally frothing at the mouth as he urged Watford fans to "**** off back to ****ing London. The Stewards did a Cheshire Cat, leaving nothing behind but the whiff of fear.

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    Mad Brewer

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • No need for standing in the Championship next season, there will be lots of empty seats as the "best supporters in the premiership" stay at home.

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    KeithS

    Wednesday, March 19, 2014

  • Manners what are they? Went with the stone age i'm afraid. civilisation is going backwards so they may come back for a short period.

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    goldie

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • I attend several matches in the Evo Stik every season and mostly I stand. It's good to have a bit of freedom to move around. Also at some grounds you can take your half time pint out with you. You are not stuck with the same idiots every week. If they bring back standing, make it a tenner ,then I might start going again.

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    Steely Dan

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • I knew you'd adhere to the rules, Brewer.

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    el dingo

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Sorry Piranha, I don't think this is about accidents. It's about a) it is currently against the law to stand at football matches, b) it's in breach of the club's safety certificate so the club is liable to have its licence to stage matches revoked or capacity reduced c) the survey result is hardly conclusive (88% of 853 people) and nobody asked me d) the fact that so many people actually stand in the Lower Barclay is because they have to in order to see. The son of my neighbour at home matches has to stand on his seat to see - how is that safe? I have had a season ticket in the Lower Barclay since they were introduced there in 1970 something and I would prefer to sit, but tolerate standing. I foolishly paid extra to 'sit' at Peterborough, but had to stand. My wife, who is vertically challenged, sits in the Jarrold for home games so she gets to sit there, but at places like Everton (she has been a regular away supporter almost as long as me) has to content herself by travelling for 3 12 hours and then watching the game on their big screen because she can't see the pitch for the selfish people standing in front of her. I don't think you're carrying the majority here, but I think you're right - it just won't happen.

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    Mikanary

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • I certainly wouldn`t want to sit on a freezing metal seat without a risk assessment! Or High Tog trousers. Yes Sherbert, a survey of only 853 fans is not too convincing. A result like that is easily achieved by a small group of activists while the silent majority remains.. silent. If and when this happens, persistent standing by selfish people, in `proper` seated areas, should be forbidden & the culprits banned.

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    Mad Brewer

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Sounds straightforward. Seating for those who want to sit and standing areas for the standuppers(that's a new word "c" lincs canary). So do you have to declare when renewing season tickets\on entry to ground which camp you are in? How does the club decide what proportion of the ground is allocated to standing\sitting? Is it all rail seats and the stand\sit figure adjusted each game?What, under the new rules, happens if you stand up in a seated area (or, I suppose, sit down in a standing area). Do the stewards have spanners and re-lock your seat in the position you have just assumed? I only ask because, I hear, it is the future and the majority will have their way.

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    Lincs Canary

    Friday, March 14, 2014

  • Have standing areas for people who want to stand and leave seating areas for people like me who wish to sit. I do not care as long as the people who want to stand do not do so in front of me.

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    NorthStarRaven

    Friday, March 14, 2014

  • There`s a very salient word, canarycaz; "etiquette". `A code of polite behaviour`. I don`t see much hope, do you?

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    Mad Brewer

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Hi Again, Lambo is God: Whilst i appreciate that the concourse areas & toilets is something that would potentially require looking at from another health and safety aspect, the green guide safety regulations does state that 1.8 standing fans can be stood to every 1 seated fan within view of the pitch. Potentially increasing a 3000 strong Lower Barclay to 5400. The rails are waist high when standing, likely to be between 95cm and 115cm in height, and when seated the view should be no different to that of the view you get of someone sitting in front of you at the moment. here's a link to a picture, you can see the yellow and green scarf seated there and the barrier is well out of his eyeline. (he's a man utd fan not Norwich) http:i.imgur.com3IYT5X2.jpg And remember, seated events would only be required in european matches. so would only effect a small amount of clubs for a small period of their season. So yes, potentially you could say for clubs like us, the seats would be a folly, but it would mean that seating is available, when required. (perhaps concerts at some stadiums) The seats would be locked in an upright position for domestic matches where standing is permitted. So there would be no mix of fans standing and sitting in the same area. That's where the choice bit comes in, want to sit, sit in the other 90% of the ground that is seated. People popping up where they shouldn't be happening now, yet i've seen people take up standing positions with their friends in the lower barclay on many occasions. And i've been to many grounds around the country where clubs have allocated tickets, but its been unreserved when you get inside. With Railseating, troublemakers will not be able to simply duck under rails (another reason a locked seat is not just a folly) and run to the back of the stands like the old days. Infact, if anything, with a rail both infront and behind them, police and stewards can block a row off at either end better than they possible could at present. Also, CCTV is everywhere nowadays, a far cry from the 80's. Hooliganism isn't as common place as it was, policing, cctv and banning orders have stopped many people from getting involved. With the exception of the odd issue (with stewards trying to seat people generally) we rarely see violence within stadiums. I'll emphasise RARELY as we all saw what happened at Wembley with Millwall fans, and let me remind you that that happened in a seated environment. I agree, This could be one of the fears of the government and the football association. But seating arrangements, sat or otherwise, does not directly affect the behaviour of people. Standing at football doesn't make someone a hooligan. Supporting your team is not a crime.

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    Thomo

    Thursday, March 13, 2014

  • Sadly thats the downfall for those in favour. Just dont believe with our track record in the UK it will ever happen. The atmosphere at German & MLS games is truly special though. Really something has to be sampled if anyone ever gets a chance.Amazing how much of a difference it makes. On a smaller scale at Carrow Road but its the reason why I could never ever sit anywhere else other than Lower Barclay. I've dabbled in cup & friendlies sitting elsewhere but nothing compares for me.

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    Mattias333

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • Its been over talked about but im a big MLS fan & german bundesliga fan. Beer can be drank in view of the pitch, safe standing is allowed and further more encouraged. The atmosphere is electric regardless which team you follow. While its easy for me to say we could learn alot from these leagues, we also have a clear track record that some numptys can ruin it in the UK for everyone else. My only arguement to that though is technically while not obeying the rules we in the lower barclay have been safely standing for many many many years with virtually no issue. Only issues seem to happen when a fan of another team somehow ends up in the home area. Other than that I remember an old boy tripping down the stairs but that was a stairage issue not a standing area issue. I was at the Boro game last season as well and issues did occur there BUT that was an extremely old school set up at Peterborough. Nothing like the proposed plans used in German etc. Im all for it. Ultimately its my area in the lower barclay and the snake pit who would massively welcome safe standing and its without any opposition really. Other areas will have a mixture of for and against but thats within areas that have been use to sitting for many years. Id propose leaving those areas alone and just have the lower barclay and snake pit as safe standing.

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    Mattias333

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

  • David McNally did state previously on twitter that he would personally never like to see a return to standing at football matches. Understandable, since I think he may have lost a friend at Hillsborough. Therefore, I think the fans will have an uphill struggle with this one. Personally I would like to see it. Those who wish to sit would largely be unaffected since those who currently 'sit' in the Barclay tend to stand anyway, and on the whole, prefer to do so. There would be plenty of other areas in the upper Barclay or elsewhere in the ground where those who prefer to sit could do so. The safety argument seems less and less relevant nowadays what with the removal of fences and the introduction of new technology, stadium design, and policing & stewarding techniques etc. it's all about giving people the choice.

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    Smudger75

    Wednesday, March 19, 2014

  • standing is ok for some. but i am a short a---.

    Report this comment

    bluelight

    Wednesday, March 12, 2014

The views expressed in the above comments do not necessarily reflect the views of this site

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