Poll: Should 20mph limits be imposed outside all schools in Norfolk?

Councillors and campaigners who are appealing for a 20mph restriction on St Williams Way. Photo: Steve Adams

David Freezer Tuesday, March 19, 2013
12:00 PM

Drivers travelling outside schools in Norfolk could have to stick to a 20mph limit - if plans being mooted by parents, teachers and councillors are progressed.

It has emerged that Norfolk County Council is investigating the possibility of introducing 20mph zones outside schools across the county.

The investigation is at an early stage, with the county council’s cabinet member for planning and transportation, Graham Plant, set to receive the report he commissioned any day.

Mr Plant said the financial and practical logistics of the plans are yet to be explored but added: “It’s fair to say we are looking very seriously at what we can do about 20mph zones outside schools, so what we can do is make a decision on how we can move forward.

“It’s something I consider to be very important. I’m anxious about my grandchildren being safe outside their school, so it is an emotive subject and we are looking very seriously at it.”

20mph factbox

The campaign to introduce a 20mph scheme outside St Williams Primary School in Thorpe St Andrew is being backed by several local parents.

Maggie Bradley, who lives in Laundry Lane and whose children – Rosie and Gregor, both aged 7, and George, 8 – all go to St Williams Primary, is calling on the county council to make the plans a reality.

“I 100pc think they should do this at all schools,” Mrs Bradley said. “They want us to walk or cycle to schools, but I drive my kids because it’s too dangerous.

“People come along here doing much more than 30mph and turn in (to St Williams Loke) and it can be really dangerous for mums and kids crossing the road to the school.

“There was a little boy knocked down at the crossing here last year when the light was on green because some drivers are going so fast they don’t even notice the lights have turned red. We can’t even teach our kids that it’s safe to cross when there’s a green light.”

Leanne Davison, from Thorpe End, whose eight-year-old son, Ben, attends the school, added: “It is such a heavily populated area that there are people coming out of their drives as well, and having to edge out into the road around cars that shouldn’t be parked on the road at picking up times, even on double yellow lines. So I tell Ben that he can’t run along the pavements here, he needs to be aware that cars can be coming out from any of the drives. It’s a nightmare.”

The move towards the 20mph zones has been welcomed by parents and local councillors at St Williams Primary School in Thorpe St Andrew - where concerns about the safety of the school’s pupils have seen a campaign launched.

County councillors Nigel Shaw and Ian Mackie joined local mothers for the launch of the campaign, and a petition, on Friday morning.

The campaign is calling for a 20mph zone at peak school times, with flashing signs and a new traffic island, for 100 yards either side of the St Williams Loke junction on St Williams Way, which is currently a busy 30mph road.

Mr Mackie, county councillor for Thorpe St Andrew, said: “The safety issues affecting St Williams Primary are not uncommon across Norfolk; admittedly some schools already have 20mph zones, but not all.

“I am not asking for a blanket 20mph on all urban roads as I don’t believe that is particularly wanted or needed, that is why we are launching a targeted campaign aimed at having timed 20mph zones during key school periods.”

As reported in the EDP in January, 10-year-old Elanor Bailey has been campaigning for a 20mph limit outside Gresham Village Primary, near Holt and been backed by North Norfolk MP Norman Lamb.

The school’s headteacher, Marc Goodliffe, said: “We’re really pleased with her campaign, mainly because a lot of it has been under her own initiative.

“I think any measures which are going to reduce speeds outside schools are a good measure because child safety is of paramount importance.”

While in the west of the county, King’s Lynn Academy principal, Craig Morrison, welcomed the council’s investigation.

The road outside the school, Queen Mary Road, is a 30mph road presently and is also used by pupils at the nearby Howard Junior School and Howard Infant and Nursery School.

Mr Morrison said: “Everything that can be done to improve child safety should be applauded and supported. I want more and more of our students to feel safe walking and cycling to school, although I would say local drivers are vigilant on the whole here.

“I would imagine all staff and parents here would support such a move. There can always be near misses outside a school so what we have to look at is that there are preventative measures put in place.

“We don’t want a report in the future where someone has been knocked over and a report says it would have been good to put these 20mph measures in place.”

57 comments

This subject certainly provokes a lot of comment! In the1930's 20 MPH speed limits were tried and found to INCREASE road deaths because they lulled pedestrians into a false sense of security with oncoming vehicles! I think most of your readers would like to reintroduce men with red flags walking in front of cars,but why let the facts spoil a good controversy!

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Harry Rabinowitz

Monday, March 25, 2013
I think idea behind the effectively zero blood alcohol driving limit in some countries is to get people to think twice about how much they are drinking the night before they know they are going to drive. Lot's of people drive the morning after a drinking session unknowingly over the limit.

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Cyril the Canary

Thursday, March 21, 2013
Its my view that the 20mph speed limit should be made to encompass the entire areas within city, town or vilage boundaries.

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expat

Thursday, March 21, 2013
I can only speak for myself. Prevention is the thing.Even though I find myself ranting "I am doing bl**dy 30" at the flashing speed signs in Filby they serve very well to reinforce the legal limit signs.As do mock gates at village access points, road narrowing, rumble strips, count down signs to limits and different coloured road surfaces. Lincolnshire uses several of these measures for villages with limits on busy rural A roads. Since the object of speed limits is to reduce accidents I can't see why Norfolk cannot adopt some if not all of these measures where it would do good, based on the premise that the average motorist is an idiot who takes a time to twig what signs are there. Using speed cameras to catch speeders is too late, the damage is done. And too often the positioning of speed cameras is deliberate to catch and fine those doing just a few mph over 30 or 40-eg at the bottom of a hill or immediately after a roundabout which has no limit, rather than those doing 80mph on a rural B road crossed by junctions with restricted sight lines.

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Daisy Roots

Thursday, March 21, 2013
*** " Does this mean that Sweden has more or less 'commonsense' than us "***. No it means they are more cautious than us. At 0.2 mg per ml of blood they are declaring a virtual zero tolerance to driving with any alcohol at all in your body. Is there any credible evidence that at that level driving ability is impaired ?. Or is it a political statement in countries with a culture of heavy boozing ?

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LARSON.E. WHIPSNADE

Thursday, March 21, 2013
Meanwhile, as I said in my last post, we need a balanced approach to the question proposed in this article. Norfolk tends to have lower speed limits than many other parts of the country so I again ask the question - is Norfolk any safer than elsewhere? One further point, almost all pedestrian accidents are caused by pedestrians being on the road. We need to make sure that children are properly educated on the such an elementray safety matter. I find it frightening that some parents and some posters appear to say they cannot do this or control their children. What other dangers are they exposing their children to???

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andy

Thursday, March 21, 2013
People drive like muppets so is it not logical that they drive like muppets at 20 instead of 30,40? You can plug statistics into any argument to make your reasoning sound but it's no substitue for common sense and to argue that speed isn't a factor into tossing someone into the air because apparently "..they came out of nowhere.." outside a school at lunchtime is frankly, absurd.

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frank young

Thursday, March 21, 2013
The drink drive limit in Sweden is 0.2mg, in Germany 0.5mg and in the UK 0.8mg. Does this mean that Sweden has more or less 'commonsense' than us? Very interesting that Germany has in fact two effective limits. A standard 0.5mg limit and a 0.3mg limit if the driver is in an accident. Transposing this idea over to school speed limits, you could have a standard 30mph speed limit and a 20mph speed limit if the driver has an accident. Would this be commonsense?

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popeye

Thursday, March 21, 2013
*** "so that makes other countries that set different level illogical or less logical than us " *** . No ....it means that they have set the safety level bar higher or lower than us. Frankly it doesn't matter what standards other countries adopt. And there is nothing illogical about the 35 figure , the 20mph limit , the legal limit for minimum depth of the tread on your tyres of 1.6 millimetre etc .....they are all based on a reasonable , common sense assessment of risk.

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LARSON.E. WHIPSNADE

Wednesday, March 20, 2013
......no more illogical than setting the drink drive limit at 35 micrograms of alcohol in 100 millilitres of breath.......so that makes other countries that set different level illogical or less logical than us? As I say setting legal limits has nothing to do with logic, and to say the opposite is illogical.

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popeye

Wednesday, March 20, 2013
****....Applying logic to arguments for speed limits is illogical really...****. No it isn't , no more illogical than setting the drink drive limit at 35 micrograms of alcohol in 100 millilitres of breath and then having someone who likes pointless arguments come along saying " well , why not 34 or 36 ?". The answer is the law requires an exact figure based around the best evidence which in its self may be an approximation.

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LARSON.E. WHIPSNADE

Wednesday, March 20, 2013
" only " 4% of accidents are alcohol related it is NOT a logical argument for not enforcing the drink drive laws." So where is the logic in a 20mph speed limit, is 15 mph illogical? Applying logic to arguments for speed limits is illogical really.

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popeye

Wednesday, March 20, 2013
****... excessive speed was NOT a contributory factor in most fatal accidents....****. And that is NOT a logical argument for NOT enforcing speed limits. In just the same way that as " only " 4% of accidents are alcohol related it is NOT a logical argument for not enforcing the drink drive laws.

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LARSON.E. WHIPSNADE

Wednesday, March 20, 2013
So, as Cyril has explained, in 2011, excessive speed was NOT a contributory factor in most fatal accidents.

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GoodRockinDaddy

Wednesday, March 20, 2013
Sorry Andy but you are wrong. In the last set of data available, for 2011, excessive speed was cited as a contributory factor in 22% of fatal incidents. And this is may not be a true representation of reality because the data is only taken from initial police accident reports where the actual speed of the vehicles before a collision is not necessarily clear.

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Cyril the Canary

Wednesday, March 20, 2013
One further comment, anyone who drives around Greater London will be amazed at the different approach to speed limits compared to Norfolk. In built up areas, it is quite common to see 40mph or higher limits whereas in Norfolk it is often 30 or less for roads that appear to exactly the same. Yet are Norfolk roads any safer? It is an inconvenient fact but according to the governments own research, inappropriate speed is the key factor in less than 15% of fatal accidents. This is not a reason to be complacent but we need a more balanced approach to road safety including education and cracking down on those who break the law. Laws that are respected need less effort to enforce as they are more likely to be complied with.

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andy

Wednesday, March 20, 2013
I agree with a 20mph limit around School areas, but only during School times (e.g 8-10am and 2-4pm). Around Fakenham Town Centre including most of the schools it is a permanent 20mph, which I think is unnecessary at night for example. It seems that these speed limits are introduced as a temporary measure around high risk areas and end up being a 247 change.

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CAROLYN SHELDRAKE

Wednesday, March 20, 2013
Swaffham town centre is a 20m.p.h. zone - not a lot of people know that.

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Thoreauwasright

Wednesday, March 20, 2013
Electronic operated so they can be turned of when School not in use, and flash when speeding.

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Tractor4

Wednesday, March 20, 2013
I think Suffolk already has a 20mph speed limit outside all its schools, is there any evidence from Suffolk that this has reduced accidents? What about the flashing lights that are outside schools in other parts of the country?

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tigger449

Wednesday, March 20, 2013
I think Suffolk already has a 20mph speed limit outside all its schools, is there any evidence from Suffolk that this has reduced accidents? What about the flashing lights that are outside schools in other parts of the country?

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tigger449

Wednesday, March 20, 2013
What's the point of twenty zones if they aren't enforced? We live in a twenty zone, a narrow residential road with poor visibility, yet very few drivers observe the limit. Cars, vans, lorries and buses frequently zip by at 40, 50 and sometimes more. Not to mention the occasional boy racers who scream past late at night at 80 mph plus. I've only seen an officer with a speed gun three times in the years since the zone was introduced. Maybe if someone is knocked down and killed they will bother more. I think speeds actually increased when they put the zones in around here because people came to realise there is almost no chance of getting caught. As to people thinking that speeds need to be controlled around schools only at going in and going home times, children come and go at all times of the day, parents visit schools for a variety reasons - often with younger children in tow and primaries often have nursery schools attached whose children come and go at lunchtimes when their sessions start and finish.

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Cyril the Canary

Wednesday, March 20, 2013
Any reduced speed limits introduced for schools should be restricted to key times only and not like the one at Blyth Jex which is permanent. I know St Williams Way and the only users for St Williams Loke are those who live in the sheltered housing or visit the Library, the doctors surgery or the school. Those parents visiting the school are a nightmare. They park illegally all the time and have little regard for anyone else. I don't believe St Williams Way needs reduced speed limits and one of those quoted above as a campaigner has no need to cross the road near the school to get to her home! And please no speedhumps to support 20 mph zones which NCC appear to think are mandatory. The money could be better spent ie the numerous potholes now evident everywhere.

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andy

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
Councils are not known for taking sensiblle ,logical decisions. In this instance ,they have it right. Speed limits are the norm in the USA and Canada.One concern is the parking of parents. They seem to ignore all the rules of the road to ensure that their little darlings only have to walk a yard or two. The danger of children running between cars is very real. Introduce the speed limit and try and educate the parents. Tough job.

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norman hall

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
20mph limits combined with children who have been taught and can obey basic road safety should keep everyone safe and sound.

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NigelS

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
Tha parking antics of parents is a completely separate issue to the speed limits, although both are relevant in terms of the safety of children. I think that the 20mph should be mandatory near schools during term time only and should be in effect all day as drop off and pick up time are not the only times during the school day when children are affected; e.g. if they are having to leave school at lunchtime or to go to an appointment or on a school outing. I can think of two villages (Brundall and Blofield) where, even with 20mph signs in place, I regularly see traffic roar up the road with no regard for the children who are trying to cross the road. There used to be a lollipop lady in Brundall which was a huge help, but even then I have observed occasions when drivers barely acknowledged her presence and almost drove through her!

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N

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
I wish I could do anything approaching 20 mph past the schools near mine; the fact is that the road is usually blocked or reduced to one way traffic by the thoughtless parking by parents who want to get as close to the school gates as possible.

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John L Norton

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
A valuable safety measure might be for NCC to work with parish councils to provide car parks for schools where there is a parking problem. Fleggburgh school is a nice example where parents appear to be allowed to park in the village hall car park and then walk their kids to school Filby also has a car park.Many rural schools have large catchment areas and where free transport is not available working parents do not have the time to walk their children a mile or more to school to arrive at a time to comply with permitted entrance to the school grounds, walk home , and then drive to work. Any area of hard standing is always useful to a village out of school hours and could have a dual use- eg informal games area.

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Daisy Roots

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
Why 20 ?

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GoodRockinDaddy

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
Oh look, another stealth 're-elect Mackie' story. I think NCC tories should go for it and have a blanket 20mph limit for the whole of Norfolk at the top of their manifesto pledges.

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Police Commissioner ???

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
Ironic that it's usually the "baby on board" brigade that are guilty of the supidest manouvers outside schools and nuseries (You hearing this Norwich School?!?!?). Perhaps there should be a limit to the amount of rubbish drivers allowed on the roads instead?

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frank young

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
This is a bit of a turnaround. Scarning Primary has been trying to get NCC to reduce the speed limit outside their school from 40mph for years and been told this isn't possible (due to costs, stats showing not enough people having accidents etc). So just before an election it seems it is possible. Still - election or not - if it gets the desired result

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Catty

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
I'm a bit shocked at most of the comments here which focus on adults. The fact is we are talking about young children who are still learning. No matter how times you teach them they will still run into a road after a ball or to see their friends on the other pavement. Getting road wise experience is part of growing up. No matter whether the parents are good drivers or bad it is surely a no brainer that roads outside schools need to require traffic to slow down so that unexpected moves by young children won't have the worst consequences. I have to say I am rather shocked at the poll results -- I don't understand the reasoning why slowing traffic down around schools would not be supported. Its about the kids isn't it?

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Lise

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
Well said 'man in the mirror'. I live between two schools, and the standard of parental driving defies belief - u-turns on a busy road - need I say more! As for parking - grass verge avilable - don't worry. Just drive across the pavement and park. A local builder does this every morning, knowing he can get away with it!!

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biglingers

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
To the people complaining about parents driving their kids too school - If the roads where a more friendly place, with better speed limits in built up areas perhaps more kids would cycle. As it is the problem is a self perpetuating one. Its clearly a problem, but don't look to blame the problem, blame the reason for the problem and fix that.

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monkeynuts

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
To the people complaining about parents driving their kids too school - If the roads where a more friendly place, with better speed limits in built up areas perhaps more kids would cycle. As it is the problem is a self perpetuating one. Its clearly a problem, but don't look to blame the problem, blame the reason for the problem and fix that.

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monkeynuts

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
Have no parking around schools and make the children walk, they would be fitter as would the parents. the whole area around schools would be better and safer. Teach the children proper road sense and some of the parent to.

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parkeg1

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
It is rather hypocritical of these parents to complain about the speed of vehicles outside their schools when the standard of their own driving leaves a lot to be desired.

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BG

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
@richguyb schools have the yellow zig zags outside them which many many parents park on anyway so a parking ban further up the road would just be ignored also but I fully support your comment. what is needed is proper policing by proper police officers who seem quite happy to park their speed vans on dual carriageways and not outside schools!

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norfolkandgood

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
Proper police officers, now you are having a laugh.

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Joe Mullets Uncle

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
@richguyb schools have the yellow zig zags outside them which many many parents park on anyway so a parking ban further up the road would just be ignored also but I fully support your comment. what is needed is proper policing by proper police officers who seem quite happy to park their speed vans on dual carriageways and not outside schools!

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norfolkandgood

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
Ironic that it's usually the "baby on board" brigade that are guilty of the supidest manouvers outside schools and nuseries (You hearing this Norwich School?!?!?). Perhaps there should be a limit to the amount of rubbish drivers allowed on the roads instead?

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frank young

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
If children were taught to stay on the path they could not get hit by cars on the road. If impemented this 20 limit should only be for a very short period at arrival and leaving times, certainly not all day, at night and weekends and holiday periods. Bring in a parking ban also within 100 yards each side of schools,

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richguyb

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
It's often the parents of these children who are the worst offenders, parking inconsiderately outside the gates of these schools causing restrictions and poor visibility for oncoming drivers.

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Joe Mullets Uncle

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
Yes but only on school days. Schools are open 36 weeks per year. That's 180 days which is less than 50%.

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country bumkin

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
10 mph 20 mph it makes no difference as a significant number of motorists totally ignore speed limits just as they ignore talking on mobiles, drink driving and so on. Until the laws of the highway are properly enforced it's a total waste of time.

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John L Norton

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
I am in favour of any safety measures arouns schools but there also needs to policing of these areas. On my daily commute to work I go past a school where there are many parents driving whilst talking on their phones or texting, illegally parked not wearing seatbelts etc. I have lost count of the times I have nearly been knocked off my bike by parents just pulling out from behind parked cars. Also how about more road safety education for children, plenty of them need more sense knocked into them before they are knocked over

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norfolkandgood

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
I've been trying for quite some time to get road calming andor 20mph signs for our village, part of which has not got pavements for the safe walking of pedestrians with childrenpushchairs and dogs but my campaigning has so far fallen on deaf ears. Norfolk County Council will not do anything, due to budget constraints, until such time as the road is deemed 'dangerous'. In other words, I believe, we have to have an injuryfatality before something is put in place!

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Denise Wright

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
Yes, 20mph outside of schools is ok as long as its at certain times of day. Only problem is the biggest danger is caused by idiot parents dropping off or picking up children. Rules of the road do not seem to apply. Double parking, not wearing seat belts in the back, not bothering with child seats, talking on the phone. etc etc.

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ggj666

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
If there was a 20mph mandatory speed limit put in place and it was regularly policed monitored I wonder how many cyclists would be charged with exceeding the speed limit ? 20MPH is an achievable target for most cyclists. As has already been mentioned, education of the parents & control of their children as to their behaviour on footpath leading upto schools is just as improtant than fleecing more misery on the motorist with unachievable 20MPH limits. I bet there would be quite a few parents doing the school run get caught if there were to be a 2MPH zone. It's usually the locals who get caught and they are the ones shouting the loudest to keep the speed down.

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muttley

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
Due to traffic lights, junctions, congestion most townscity's have an average moving speed of around 20mph anyway - some city have a average moving speed of as little as 11mph. With that in mind, and my personal belief that pedestrian safetypriority is paramount, it would make allot of sense to enforce a maximum of 20mph in all built up areas, not just schools.

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monkeynuts

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
There is a purpose built pelican crossing just 25 metres west of St Williams Loke junction. I can't think of a less likely place in need of a 20mph zone.

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popeye

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
yes, but you need the limit to be mandatory and it needs to be regularly policedmonitored and people actually prosecuted when they exceed the limit rather than just being warned. We used to have a 20 limit through our village but this was removed and its gone back to 30. Although people might not have stuck to 20 it does keep the average speed lower than when the limit is 30

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Daveyboy

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
Road safety lessons might help to teach 13 year old boys they are not invincible when they decide to step into the road and stroll across at their leisure, and that cars need a bit of stopping distance no matter how slowly they are travelling. And toddlers wearing reins when walking beside busy roads instead of running about like headless chickens while their mothers send texts would be something.

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Daisy Roots

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
How about the Oregon system - overhead lights, speed sign. In addition continent uses lights either side of school, road warning markers and flashing 20 signs during school hours only. Also we should ban parking both sides of the road for 50 metres either side of school gates.between 8 a.m. and 4.30 p.m. Speeding offences within school zones should be categorised as Dangerous Speed due to extra warning given and subject to six point minimum penalty.

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Richard Woods

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
Yes but only at school peak times and indicated by light signs. I can think of two places with a 20mph limits put in place for schools which are in force all the time including vacations and they are infuriating. Peak time 20mph as used in Suffolk works well. Also speed limits should be in addition to safety measures at crossing points and junctions, parking safety measures and adequate cycle paths-not as a cheap alternative.Speed is not the only problem where kids are concerned.

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Daisy Roots

Tuesday, March 19, 2013
It should only be a 20 limit when the schools are opening and closing. It would be pointless to have 20 limits at other times of the day and night.

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Lord Elf

Tuesday, March 19, 2013